And this is what makes reading Rohr so frustrating (and slow because I need to take breaks from his nonsense) because he mocks the idea of the fall and the need for Jesus’ sacrifice to save us.
He writes, “For the first two thousand years of Christianity, we framed our faith in terms of a problem and a threat.” (Rohr, 18)
No; Rohr, that is the state of the fallen world.
Our faith, which Jenny describes here, is one that Christians frame with hope.
I agree with both David and Jenny. I think it is highly possible we are in the end times. I have been studying history since a teen. I am now 75. History is a passion of mine.There has never been an era of time quite like this one in which all prophecies and predictions are coming together. Though Jesus says and I accept that we will not know the exact day or hour. He does promise red flags and urges us to be aware of them. Peter tells us that a thousands years are as 1day to God. The Church rightly teaches that though we don't know the exact date of the end times, a term I dislike because its misleading,, as The end times are really the beginning or new times. Anyway the Church teaches that regardless of when 'the end times' come, or own personal end/beginning times can happen at any moment in our lives, so be ready. That brings me to the main point here. As Jenny says our focus should not be on governments, new laws, new political anything. Our focus should be on changing hearts (starting with our own, of course). Paul, who if you read carefully loved the Law of God, warned us that it is a teaching tool with no power to change us or the world. Our hearts must change which is accomplished in and through Christ Jesus. Unite and renew our hearts in the Heart of Christ! Then we are ready for which ever 'end/new time' comes to us first!
PS Israel being restored as a nation, as prophesied, is one of the signs of Jesus 2nd coming. Just saying, lets not argue. Lets be alert and ready!!!!!
I don't think debating ideas is necessarily arguing, but clarifying the important issue at hand.
This is a debated issue among theologians and biblical exegetes. And in my opinion, it's important aspect to get right when it comes to proclaiming the gospel. What is at stake for the world for those who accept or reject the gospel?
"Benjamin Merkle in his book Discontinuity to Continuity: A Survey of Dispensational & Covenantal Theologies explains that there’s no particular consensus to the found within the frameworks of continuity in covenant theology, “Similar to progressive covenantalism, *there is no consistent interpretation of Romans 11:26 offered by covenant theologians.* The identity of “Israel” in Paul’s phrase, “And in this way all Israel will be saved,” is understood to refer to (1) the church, (2) the elect among ethnic Israel throughout history, or (3) a future mass conversion of ethnic Israel." (Phillip Hadden, Jesus and the New Exodus, Holy Apostles College and Seminary, 2020)
Furthermore, "Catholic Theologians Brant Pitre, Michael Barber, and John Kincaid in a co-authored give an answer to what exactly is the meaning of St. Paul’s words found in Romans 11:26, ”For one thing, if we want to know what Paul means when he says that “all Israel [Israēl] will be saved [sōthēsetai]” (Rom 11:26), it is critical to interpret it within the broader context of Romans 9–11. Here Paul has already declared that “not all who are descended from Israel [Israēl] belong to Israel” (Rom 9:6 RSV). With these words, he reduces “true” Israel to “those who put their faith in Christ.” (Ibid.)
So, the above opinion, which includes three well-established Catholic scholars is that no, there will not be a literal restored Israel before the second coming.
Phillip, You are right. Debate is good and even necessary. In fact I love debates. Growing up we had our meal time talks, as we called them, every day. I guess I am a little too sensitive and 'gun shy', as I and most of us old folks find ourselves marginalized and are expected to be quiet and just listen. Now let me be clear, Misseo Dei writers have NEVER been like that. You are all very respectful!!!!! I think perhaps I am too cautious!
You are also right that both Catholic and Protestants theolohians disagree among themselves as to when Jesus comes again and what that will be like. In fact within Cathloicism and within even the Evengelical community there are many disagreements. Its NOT just a Catholic versus Protesant thing!
However, I find the Catholic Church too wimpy about the 2nd Coming of Jesus. We say it in the Mass Eucharistic response, but where is the teaching in homilies or catechetical classes? Everyone seems to either avoid it, or pass quickly over it, teaching it will likely be another 2,000 years at least. We don't know that, however. It might be tonight! I don't know when Jesus will come again or what exactly it will look like, but I eagerly look forward to it. My point that I tried to make is, lets not be like the foolish virgins waiting for the bridegroom. Lets be like the wise virgins and not be caught unprepared! Jesus said that not me. I just try to take His advise.
Read and listen to Ralph Martin from Renewal Ministries, he’s not wimpy on the second coming of Jesus which is why the first command of the Church is so important to him--the proclamation of the gospel.
It’s important for me too for the same reasons as Ralph.
If we are speaking of only the USA, then yes, our day will come when we are not the most powerful nation on earth, and that will not mean Jesus Coming is either near or far. But if Jesus had not intended for us to be alert, ready and aware that His Coming could be at any moment, He would not have told us to be ready now! We can not stick our heads in the sand and say Jesus didn't mean the 21st century. How do you know that for sure? Most Christian people I have met, including priests and bishops, are scared, frightened of Jesus 2nd coming! We do not wish to face it, so we hide and say "oh, not yet. Its too soon! There are not enough signs yet"! I don't know when He is coming, but if He were to come as I write this, it would not surprise me at all. I for one would say, "Hooray, finally! I am so overjoyed, Dear Lord!"!
The destruction of the Temple symbolized the destruction of everything the Jewish people held sacred; but Israel is again a nation as was prophesied (cf. Isaiah 11:11-12; 46:9-11; Jeremiah 16:14-15; Ezekiel 36:24-35; Zechariah 8:4-8; 12:2-14; Luke 21:24; Romans 11).
A premillennialist interpretation of those passages. There’s no literal kingdom to be established here on earth. I’ll grant Irenaeus and Justin Martyr are premillennialist, but this isn’t really the Patristic view after Nicaea and especially after Augustine.
Those passages refer to the kingdom initiated by the coming of Jesus Christ here’s some more Ezekiel 34, Lk 11:20, Jn. 10, Mk 1, etc.
The mosaic covenant treaty was broken by the Israelites via Jeremiah 11 & the Shekhinah never returned to the 2nd temple via Ezra 6. John’s Gospel is explicit when God’s presence returns to the world:
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.
The Acts of the Apostles, Luke, and Romans 11 (in its entirety of context) makes clear that Israel is not a literal kingdom, but the new Israel, the Church, established by Christ who grafts both Jews & Gentiles who believe in the fulfillment of Israel’s covenant grants through Jesus.
I believe that the existence of the Church as not being a literal earthly kingdom is correct. Christ is still at the right hand of the Father at the present time (cf. Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:34); but I also believe that God has prophecies that are specific for Israel. There is no reason why this is not possible. The nation of Israel is now a reality again. The Church has 2000 year of history and writings. There is a lot to choose from.
I just don’t agree that there is something separate for Judaism from Jesus, who is the fulfillment of Israel’s covenant grants--Jesus is their prophecies fulfilled.
Romans 11:26, as I point out to Kathleen below, must be interpreted in the context of the whole of Romans 9-11 in which Paul states “not all who are descended from Israel [Israēl] belong to Israel” (Rom. 9:6)
I can see where Romans 9 is referring to a spiritual Israel; but Romans 11 is not speaking of a spiritual Israel. Paul refers to himself as being of the tribe of Benjamin when referring to himself as of the seed of Abraham in 11:1.
Sorry, but I find this disingenuous to try to claim the context of these two passages is a different type of Israel.
Romans 9 speaks of two peoples that form a single ethnic/non-ethnic Israel who has faith in Christ’s fulfillment. Romans 11 does the same when it speaks of the Gentiles being grafted to what remains of the root from which other branches were broken off.
Romans 11:17-18 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.
The entire context of the rhetoric is a build-up to what Israel is when Paul says in Rom. 11:26 “and thus all Israel will be saved,”
Actually, it looks like both chapters 9 and 11 in Romans have references to both ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel (cf. 9:3; 11:1 and 9:8; 11:13-25). Romans 11:25-29 looks like it speaks of the eventual conversion of ethnic Israel.
Jesus's disciples asked Christ the same type of question in the very Mathew 24th chapter in verse 3;"Tell us,when shall these things be,and of the end of the age?"
Jesus answered the question with what I'm saying now in verse 33;"So you also,when you see all these things(the signs of the times)know that it is near-even at the doors!"
"The wars and rumours of wars",plus the advent of so many false teachers,and all the other signs that are rapidly occurring in the very 24th chapter,are now under way.Plus,I think the general lack of love for others is so played in our society,even in our houses of worship,as described as a general characteristic of the last days"The love of many shall wax cold,because of the iniquity that abounds!"
It is my heartfelt belief,as well as it is for others,we are in the last day times just prior to the beginning of the tribulation events as described in Revelation,as well as in Mathew 24th chapter.Certainately,the attitudes and lifestyles of the people are reflected in the last day prophesy in 2nd Timothy 3rd chapter!
I view things differently, through a historical lens. When we look at the history of people and even natural events, not much has changed, so to say we're now in the end times based on how things look and how people are today can be applied to any time in history. This makes me think of the Romans of Jesus' and Paul's day (Paul initially thought Jesus' second coming was right around the corner). Abortion, infanticide, homosexuality, greed, all the rest were very prominent. The attitudes of the people at that time, and in most other times in history, are the same (sadly) as today.
Then I think of the 14th century. That century began with a huge weather shift that is now called the "little ice age," a severe cooling trend that didn't start to reverse itself until many hundreds of years later. This cooling trend resulted in both floods and famine, and failing crops which led to malnutrition and starvation. This in turn led to the Black Death being far more devastating than it otherwise would have been had the people been healthy. Death tolls in some places, such as Siena Italy, were up to 60% of the population. Wars were predominant everywhere (i.e. the Italian city states, the 100 Years War, Muslim invasions, etc.), severe earthquakes rocked the known world, and other pestilences. People were sexually promiscuous (read Boccaccio for example) and disrespectful of the Chuch. The papacy itself was in Avignon, and desperately needing reform. The people back then were certain they were living in the "end times." One can understand why. All the signs were there. Yet here humanity remains, still fallen, as Phillip said!
And Christianity and society look dire in the West, but is exploding in the global south. So, I simply caution a literal doomsday lens. The fall of empires always looks like the end of the world, but it’s just the fall of an empire.
“However, we still live in a fallen world.”
And this is what makes reading Rohr so frustrating (and slow because I need to take breaks from his nonsense) because he mocks the idea of the fall and the need for Jesus’ sacrifice to save us.
He writes, “For the first two thousand years of Christianity, we framed our faith in terms of a problem and a threat.” (Rohr, 18)
No; Rohr, that is the state of the fallen world.
Our faith, which Jenny describes here, is one that Christians frame with hope.
I agree with both David and Jenny. I think it is highly possible we are in the end times. I have been studying history since a teen. I am now 75. History is a passion of mine.There has never been an era of time quite like this one in which all prophecies and predictions are coming together. Though Jesus says and I accept that we will not know the exact day or hour. He does promise red flags and urges us to be aware of them. Peter tells us that a thousands years are as 1day to God. The Church rightly teaches that though we don't know the exact date of the end times, a term I dislike because its misleading,, as The end times are really the beginning or new times. Anyway the Church teaches that regardless of when 'the end times' come, or own personal end/beginning times can happen at any moment in our lives, so be ready. That brings me to the main point here. As Jenny says our focus should not be on governments, new laws, new political anything. Our focus should be on changing hearts (starting with our own, of course). Paul, who if you read carefully loved the Law of God, warned us that it is a teaching tool with no power to change us or the world. Our hearts must change which is accomplished in and through Christ Jesus. Unite and renew our hearts in the Heart of Christ! Then we are ready for which ever 'end/new time' comes to us first!
PS Israel being restored as a nation, as prophesied, is one of the signs of Jesus 2nd coming. Just saying, lets not argue. Lets be alert and ready!!!!!
Kathleen,
I don't think debating ideas is necessarily arguing, but clarifying the important issue at hand.
This is a debated issue among theologians and biblical exegetes. And in my opinion, it's important aspect to get right when it comes to proclaiming the gospel. What is at stake for the world for those who accept or reject the gospel?
"Benjamin Merkle in his book Discontinuity to Continuity: A Survey of Dispensational & Covenantal Theologies explains that there’s no particular consensus to the found within the frameworks of continuity in covenant theology, “Similar to progressive covenantalism, *there is no consistent interpretation of Romans 11:26 offered by covenant theologians.* The identity of “Israel” in Paul’s phrase, “And in this way all Israel will be saved,” is understood to refer to (1) the church, (2) the elect among ethnic Israel throughout history, or (3) a future mass conversion of ethnic Israel." (Phillip Hadden, Jesus and the New Exodus, Holy Apostles College and Seminary, 2020)
Furthermore, "Catholic Theologians Brant Pitre, Michael Barber, and John Kincaid in a co-authored give an answer to what exactly is the meaning of St. Paul’s words found in Romans 11:26, ”For one thing, if we want to know what Paul means when he says that “all Israel [Israēl] will be saved [sōthēsetai]” (Rom 11:26), it is critical to interpret it within the broader context of Romans 9–11. Here Paul has already declared that “not all who are descended from Israel [Israēl] belong to Israel” (Rom 9:6 RSV). With these words, he reduces “true” Israel to “those who put their faith in Christ.” (Ibid.)
So, the above opinion, which includes three well-established Catholic scholars is that no, there will not be a literal restored Israel before the second coming.
Phillip, You are right. Debate is good and even necessary. In fact I love debates. Growing up we had our meal time talks, as we called them, every day. I guess I am a little too sensitive and 'gun shy', as I and most of us old folks find ourselves marginalized and are expected to be quiet and just listen. Now let me be clear, Misseo Dei writers have NEVER been like that. You are all very respectful!!!!! I think perhaps I am too cautious!
You are also right that both Catholic and Protestants theolohians disagree among themselves as to when Jesus comes again and what that will be like. In fact within Cathloicism and within even the Evengelical community there are many disagreements. Its NOT just a Catholic versus Protesant thing!
However, I find the Catholic Church too wimpy about the 2nd Coming of Jesus. We say it in the Mass Eucharistic response, but where is the teaching in homilies or catechetical classes? Everyone seems to either avoid it, or pass quickly over it, teaching it will likely be another 2,000 years at least. We don't know that, however. It might be tonight! I don't know when Jesus will come again or what exactly it will look like, but I eagerly look forward to it. My point that I tried to make is, lets not be like the foolish virgins waiting for the bridegroom. Lets be like the wise virgins and not be caught unprepared! Jesus said that not me. I just try to take His advise.
Read and listen to Ralph Martin from Renewal Ministries, he’s not wimpy on the second coming of Jesus which is why the first command of the Church is so important to him--the proclamation of the gospel.
It’s important for me too for the same reasons as Ralph.
If we are speaking of only the USA, then yes, our day will come when we are not the most powerful nation on earth, and that will not mean Jesus Coming is either near or far. But if Jesus had not intended for us to be alert, ready and aware that His Coming could be at any moment, He would not have told us to be ready now! We can not stick our heads in the sand and say Jesus didn't mean the 21st century. How do you know that for sure? Most Christian people I have met, including priests and bishops, are scared, frightened of Jesus 2nd coming! We do not wish to face it, so we hide and say "oh, not yet. Its too soon! There are not enough signs yet"! I don't know when He is coming, but if He were to come as I write this, it would not surprise me at all. I for one would say, "Hooray, finally! I am so overjoyed, Dear Lord!"!
I will. I am very familiar with Ralph Martin, but a long time since I have read anything by him. I shall renew my acquaintance with him. Thank you!
The destruction of the Temple symbolized the destruction of everything the Jewish people held sacred; but Israel is again a nation as was prophesied (cf. Isaiah 11:11-12; 46:9-11; Jeremiah 16:14-15; Ezekiel 36:24-35; Zechariah 8:4-8; 12:2-14; Luke 21:24; Romans 11).
A premillennialist interpretation of those passages. There’s no literal kingdom to be established here on earth. I’ll grant Irenaeus and Justin Martyr are premillennialist, but this isn’t really the Patristic view after Nicaea and especially after Augustine.
Those passages refer to the kingdom initiated by the coming of Jesus Christ here’s some more Ezekiel 34, Lk 11:20, Jn. 10, Mk 1, etc.
The mosaic covenant treaty was broken by the Israelites via Jeremiah 11 & the Shekhinah never returned to the 2nd temple via Ezra 6. John’s Gospel is explicit when God’s presence returns to the world:
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.
The Acts of the Apostles, Luke, and Romans 11 (in its entirety of context) makes clear that Israel is not a literal kingdom, but the new Israel, the Church, established by Christ who grafts both Jews & Gentiles who believe in the fulfillment of Israel’s covenant grants through Jesus.
I believe that the existence of the Church as not being a literal earthly kingdom is correct. Christ is still at the right hand of the Father at the present time (cf. Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:34); but I also believe that God has prophecies that are specific for Israel. There is no reason why this is not possible. The nation of Israel is now a reality again. The Church has 2000 year of history and writings. There is a lot to choose from.
I just don’t agree that there is something separate for Judaism from Jesus, who is the fulfillment of Israel’s covenant grants--Jesus is their prophecies fulfilled.
Romans 11:26, as I point out to Kathleen below, must be interpreted in the context of the whole of Romans 9-11 in which Paul states “not all who are descended from Israel [Israēl] belong to Israel” (Rom. 9:6)
I can see where Romans 9 is referring to a spiritual Israel; but Romans 11 is not speaking of a spiritual Israel. Paul refers to himself as being of the tribe of Benjamin when referring to himself as of the seed of Abraham in 11:1.
Sorry, but I find this disingenuous to try to claim the context of these two passages is a different type of Israel.
Romans 9 speaks of two peoples that form a single ethnic/non-ethnic Israel who has faith in Christ’s fulfillment. Romans 11 does the same when it speaks of the Gentiles being grafted to what remains of the root from which other branches were broken off.
Romans 11:17-18 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.
The entire context of the rhetoric is a build-up to what Israel is when Paul says in Rom. 11:26 “and thus all Israel will be saved,”
Actually, it looks like both chapters 9 and 11 in Romans have references to both ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel (cf. 9:3; 11:1 and 9:8; 11:13-25). Romans 11:25-29 looks like it speaks of the eventual conversion of ethnic Israel.
Jesus's disciples asked Christ the same type of question in the very Mathew 24th chapter in verse 3;"Tell us,when shall these things be,and of the end of the age?"
Jesus answered the question with what I'm saying now in verse 33;"So you also,when you see all these things(the signs of the times)know that it is near-even at the doors!"
"The wars and rumours of wars",plus the advent of so many false teachers,and all the other signs that are rapidly occurring in the very 24th chapter,are now under way.Plus,I think the general lack of love for others is so played in our society,even in our houses of worship,as described as a general characteristic of the last days"The love of many shall wax cold,because of the iniquity that abounds!"
It is my heartfelt belief,as well as it is for others,we are in the last day times just prior to the beginning of the tribulation events as described in Revelation,as well as in Mathew 24th chapter.Certainately,the attitudes and lifestyles of the people are reflected in the last day prophesy in 2nd Timothy 3rd chapter!
David, what is your response to those who say, “people have thought every age to be the end times?”
What makes now different in your view?
I view things differently, through a historical lens. When we look at the history of people and even natural events, not much has changed, so to say we're now in the end times based on how things look and how people are today can be applied to any time in history. This makes me think of the Romans of Jesus' and Paul's day (Paul initially thought Jesus' second coming was right around the corner). Abortion, infanticide, homosexuality, greed, all the rest were very prominent. The attitudes of the people at that time, and in most other times in history, are the same (sadly) as today.
Then I think of the 14th century. That century began with a huge weather shift that is now called the "little ice age," a severe cooling trend that didn't start to reverse itself until many hundreds of years later. This cooling trend resulted in both floods and famine, and failing crops which led to malnutrition and starvation. This in turn led to the Black Death being far more devastating than it otherwise would have been had the people been healthy. Death tolls in some places, such as Siena Italy, were up to 60% of the population. Wars were predominant everywhere (i.e. the Italian city states, the 100 Years War, Muslim invasions, etc.), severe earthquakes rocked the known world, and other pestilences. People were sexually promiscuous (read Boccaccio for example) and disrespectful of the Chuch. The papacy itself was in Avignon, and desperately needing reform. The people back then were certain they were living in the "end times." One can understand why. All the signs were there. Yet here humanity remains, still fallen, as Phillip said!
And Christianity and society look dire in the West, but is exploding in the global south. So, I simply caution a literal doomsday lens. The fall of empires always looks like the end of the world, but it’s just the fall of an empire.