From St. Augustine, a rather long quote, please forgive me. Points of emphasis bracketed ***like so***.
"Let us love our Lord God, let us love His Church: Him as a Father, Her as a Mother: Him as a Lord, Her as His Handmaid, as we are ourselves the Handmaid’s sons. But this marriage is held together by a bond of great love: no man offends the one, and wins favour of the other. Let no man say, I go indeed to the idols, I consult possessed ones and fortune-tellers: yet I abandon not God’s Church; I am a Catholic. While you hold to your Mother, you have offended your Father. Another says, Far be it from me; I consult no sorcerer, I seek out no possessed one, I never ask advice by sacrilegious divination, I go not to worship idols, I bow not before stones; though I am in the party of Donatus. ***What does it profit you not to have offended your Father, if he avenges your offended Mother?*** What does it serve you, if you acknowledge the Lord, honour God, preach His name, acknowledge His Son, confess that He sits by His right hand; while you blaspheme His Church? Does not the analogy of human marriages convince you? Suppose you have some patron, whom you court every day, whose threshold you wear with your visits, whom you daily not only salute, but even worship, to whom you pay the most loyal courtesy; ***if you utter one calumny against his wife, could you re-enter his house?*** Hold then, most beloved, hold all with one mind to God the Father, and the Church our Mother. Celebrate with temperance the birthdays of the Saints, that we may imitate those who have gone before us, and that they who pray for you may rejoice over you; that the blessing of the Lord may abide on you for evermore. Amen and Amen."
I was Not speaking, from the beginning, about dogmatic and doctrinal statements. I believe my words were to the effect that we do not have to adhere to every word or action from a pope. I think I said to every word from his mouth or something similar, meaning homilies, reflections, press questions, comments on global warming, his comments against on bringing down Roe vs Wade and other moral issues etc. However, I stand by my comment that we can disagree with these. And I was only asking for clarification, as many Catholics and definitely non-Catholics think that every time he speaks we must blindly believe and obey. They think that if a pope says the sky is green and the grass is blue, Catholics must believe it. Francis has often said things that actually contradict past popes, the Magisterium and the Bible which truthfully has shocked me!!!!
There are othrodox and trustworthy cardinals, archbishops and canon lawyers, none of whom are liberal,who do not entirely agree with you. They state that there are times and situations when we can disagree and even disobey a pope. When a pope teaches or acts against the truth and will of God, we can . Actually it is more complicated and intricate than either you or I have explained. Books are written on it. However, the Parchemama situation is definitely one where we can disagree with Pope Francis. That was a terrible disgrace. God is to be obeyed and honored before a pope!
This is as an excellent article! I agree, but I think there is one thing that should be clarified. We do not have to agree with and believe everything Pope Francis says and does.The Parchemama episode is an excellent example. Here Pope Francis sinned, and yes, popes can sin. Pope Francis himself has told us that. We only have to believe when popes speak excathedra. Popes have to make it clear they are speaking ex-cathedra. This has not been done very often in the history of the Church, and to the best of my knowledge, Pope Francis has never done this. There are many things I disagree with Pope Francis on, but I pray for him everyday and ask God's blessing upon him both persona!ly and as pope.
Yes, he does often leave us confused, Gratia. The Web link you sent shows that very clearly. Seeing the Pope in the Vatican Gardens with priests and nuns on their knees bowed face to the ground before the Parchemama was heart wrenching! He did not try to stop them. He allowed it and watched. When Parchemama statues were placed in the sancturaies of several Italian churches, and when the young man bravely removed these statues and threw them in the Tiber, Francis did not praise him, but chastised him soundly with strong angry words!!! Pope Francis is man I do not understand!
I suspect that there is a difference between us being baptized in the Spirit and what Adam and Eve had in the Garden before the fall. When we are now baptized in the Spirit, the whole Godhead abides in us. Christ contains the fullness of the Godhead in us. His presence within us is what redeems us because, of ourselves, this would not be possible. Sanctifying grace flows into us through Christ’s Spirit when He is within us. This grace fortifies us. The God/man Redeemer existed only as the Word when Adam and Eve were in their innocent state in the Garden; and they did not require redemption at that point. I don’t see where God needed to reside in them as He does in us now that we need redemption. By the way, the Church does recognize many Protestant baptisms. If Protestants can be baptized in the Spirit as Protestants, they are in the state of sanctifying grace without being formal members of the Catholic Church.
We must remain in the Church—Always.
From St. Augustine, a rather long quote, please forgive me. Points of emphasis bracketed ***like so***.
"Let us love our Lord God, let us love His Church: Him as a Father, Her as a Mother: Him as a Lord, Her as His Handmaid, as we are ourselves the Handmaid’s sons. But this marriage is held together by a bond of great love: no man offends the one, and wins favour of the other. Let no man say, I go indeed to the idols, I consult possessed ones and fortune-tellers: yet I abandon not God’s Church; I am a Catholic. While you hold to your Mother, you have offended your Father. Another says, Far be it from me; I consult no sorcerer, I seek out no possessed one, I never ask advice by sacrilegious divination, I go not to worship idols, I bow not before stones; though I am in the party of Donatus. ***What does it profit you not to have offended your Father, if he avenges your offended Mother?*** What does it serve you, if you acknowledge the Lord, honour God, preach His name, acknowledge His Son, confess that He sits by His right hand; while you blaspheme His Church? Does not the analogy of human marriages convince you? Suppose you have some patron, whom you court every day, whose threshold you wear with your visits, whom you daily not only salute, but even worship, to whom you pay the most loyal courtesy; ***if you utter one calumny against his wife, could you re-enter his house?*** Hold then, most beloved, hold all with one mind to God the Father, and the Church our Mother. Celebrate with temperance the birthdays of the Saints, that we may imitate those who have gone before us, and that they who pray for you may rejoice over you; that the blessing of the Lord may abide on you for evermore. Amen and Amen."
I was Not speaking, from the beginning, about dogmatic and doctrinal statements. I believe my words were to the effect that we do not have to adhere to every word or action from a pope. I think I said to every word from his mouth or something similar, meaning homilies, reflections, press questions, comments on global warming, his comments against on bringing down Roe vs Wade and other moral issues etc. However, I stand by my comment that we can disagree with these. And I was only asking for clarification, as many Catholics and definitely non-Catholics think that every time he speaks we must blindly believe and obey. They think that if a pope says the sky is green and the grass is blue, Catholics must believe it. Francis has often said things that actually contradict past popes, the Magisterium and the Bible which truthfully has shocked me!!!!
There are othrodox and trustworthy cardinals, archbishops and canon lawyers, none of whom are liberal,who do not entirely agree with you. They state that there are times and situations when we can disagree and even disobey a pope. When a pope teaches or acts against the truth and will of God, we can . Actually it is more complicated and intricate than either you or I have explained. Books are written on it. However, the Parchemama situation is definitely one where we can disagree with Pope Francis. That was a terrible disgrace. God is to be obeyed and honored before a pope!
This is as an excellent article! I agree, but I think there is one thing that should be clarified. We do not have to agree with and believe everything Pope Francis says and does.The Parchemama episode is an excellent example. Here Pope Francis sinned, and yes, popes can sin. Pope Francis himself has told us that. We only have to believe when popes speak excathedra. Popes have to make it clear they are speaking ex-cathedra. This has not been done very often in the history of the Church, and to the best of my knowledge, Pope Francis has never done this. There are many things I disagree with Pope Francis on, but I pray for him everyday and ask God's blessing upon him both persona!ly and as pope.
Yes, he does often leave us confused, Gratia. The Web link you sent shows that very clearly. Seeing the Pope in the Vatican Gardens with priests and nuns on their knees bowed face to the ground before the Parchemama was heart wrenching! He did not try to stop them. He allowed it and watched. When Parchemama statues were placed in the sancturaies of several Italian churches, and when the young man bravely removed these statues and threw them in the Tiber, Francis did not praise him, but chastised him soundly with strong angry words!!! Pope Francis is man I do not understand!
I suspect that there is a difference between us being baptized in the Spirit and what Adam and Eve had in the Garden before the fall. When we are now baptized in the Spirit, the whole Godhead abides in us. Christ contains the fullness of the Godhead in us. His presence within us is what redeems us because, of ourselves, this would not be possible. Sanctifying grace flows into us through Christ’s Spirit when He is within us. This grace fortifies us. The God/man Redeemer existed only as the Word when Adam and Eve were in their innocent state in the Garden; and they did not require redemption at that point. I don’t see where God needed to reside in them as He does in us now that we need redemption. By the way, the Church does recognize many Protestant baptisms. If Protestants can be baptized in the Spirit as Protestants, they are in the state of sanctifying grace without being formal members of the Catholic Church.