You can also point out to your friend that regarding Sacred Scripture she is also wrong regarding Christian worship on Sundays--the first day of the week.
Acts of the Apostles 20:7 On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight.
&
1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of the week each of you should set aside and save whatever he can afford, so that collections will not be going on when I come.
I’m of the theological & Scriptural opinion that regarding Sacred Scripture all Catholic Doctrine exists implicit & materially there.
Yes, I did. She claims that these are faulty translations from the Greek because she has some app that gives her scripture in both KJV version and Greek. Of course, that is untrue. But, it all hinges on authority - you believe what you trust. My Catholic podcasts this week have been all on this subject of the teaching and governing authority of the Church, quoting the Bible, the early Church Fathers, the Catechism, Fr. Spirago, using logic, refelction, etc. It is a fairly long chapter in my book, so I am breaking it down into 30 min or so bites with commentary.
Off the top of my head the KJV worked off like 6 Greek Manuscripts. So, it’s hardly authoritative, which is why Protestants generally use different translations. The Bible didn’t come down in the King’s English. While it’s true that every translation is a work of exegesis, when many denominations agree on a passage then the ability to assent is fairly easy. She’s doing mental gymnastics. I’d simply retort St. Augustine quote that it’s not the gospel she believes but herself because when you show her the counter argument she moves the goalposts.
Very true! Actually, you would be amazed at the mental gymnastics... it reminds me quite a bit of how the Gnostics would base their heresy on labyrinthian interpretations of various bits and pieces of scripture as if every sentence were some deeply mysterious secret prophecy with numerical codes and hidden meanings. As they say, even a stopped clock is right twice a day and Freud was when he said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
Wow. I've not read a text dispelling “sola scriptura” quite so convincingly before. I've not followed that way myself for reason's I'm not entirely sure of. Only that I've just never felt right in that view, although I am still a protestant. A very thought provoking read this morning. Praise God for that.
I'm going to be so bold as to ask for a "Catholic perspective," or at least your perspective, on my most recent essay. I've not thought to run it by a non-protestant for some reason until now but I'd love to get feedback from a more traditional Christian view. If you have the time, I would very much appreciate you taking a look.
Thanks! I just read your article and it is quite good. I think you are accurate on every point and I hope many will read it. Interestingly, I left the Methodist denomination for this very reason.. I was a Methodist associate youth minister int he late 90s. That took me to the Southern Baptist denomination, as it was more conservative. But again, issues arose over marriage... and that led me to read the early Church Fathers, to eventually to convert to Catholicism. You may find the Gospel reflections I have written for Missio Dei over the past few weeks interesting, as I have been writing a lot about keeping our Lord's commandments and against the homosexual/trans movement. Best wishes on your journey, and I can only offer the advice I followed, pray constantly and follow the Holy Spirit. Feel free to email me if I can be of any help judson@judsoncarroll.com
Thank you for your kind words. That is very interesting and you're not the first ex-Methodist I've come across who left a very long time ago for these reasons. I've obviously got to get my hands on the writings of the early Church Fathers. This has come up time and time again as I've been pondering these issues. And I will certainly go back and read your writings over the past few weeks over the LGBTQ+ topic.
The good news is everything is available online now - the full library of the Church Fathers is huge and expensive. Here is the Didache http://www.thedidache.com/ and here is the ante-Nicene fathers https://ccel.org/fathers
Sure, no problem. I used those links extensively in writing my most recent book, so they were saved to my favorites. Another great resource is The Catechism Explained by Fr. Spirago. It is free on archive.org.
Vatican II’s Dei Verbum 21 says: "Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture.” The Church recognizes that there is nothing out there that is more authoritative than Scripture for teaching doctrine.
The entire Catholic Church in the fourth century compiled Scripture as the basis for future teaching. Anything else that Christ taught His apostles and disciples is not recorded, so how would anyone know what else He taught them.
The New Testament was written post-Pentecost. This is why it contains teachings, especially in the epistles, that were only alluded to by Christ, but that the Holy Spirit would eventually provide clarification for His apostles and disciples after Pentecost. When there was no longer anyone alive that was initially taught by Christ Himself, there was no longer anyone left that could have what Christ taught to them clarified by the Holy Spirit.
Paul was directly taught by Christ after Pentecost, but he consulted with those in Jerusalem to ensure that his teachings were in line with those of the apostles who had walked with Christ.
The best that we can do today is to use our supernatural discernment, if we have it, to better understand what was taught 2000 years ago. If we don’t have it, we will probably be confused.
By the way, I think that the earliest Jewish Christians gathered on Sunday because they were observing the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday.
You write, “The Church recognizes that there is nothing out there that is more authoritative than Scripture for teaching doctrine.”
Dei Verbum actually doesn’t say that in the text. What DV does say regarding Sacred Revelation given to us by God and it’s authority is found in DV 7:
But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, “handing over” to them “the authority to teach in their own place.” This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received everything.”
&
Dei Verbum 9
“Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.”
DV 10
“Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God.”
“It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”
I know that the text doesn’t actually say that, but if all of Church teaching needs to be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture, what other writings are more authoritative than Sacred Scripture. Anything that is truly regulated by Sacred Scripture can be can be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence. I see no conflict with the remainder.
You can also point out to your friend that regarding Sacred Scripture she is also wrong regarding Christian worship on Sundays--the first day of the week.
Acts of the Apostles 20:7 On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight.
&
1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of the week each of you should set aside and save whatever he can afford, so that collections will not be going on when I come.
I’m of the theological & Scriptural opinion that regarding Sacred Scripture all Catholic Doctrine exists implicit & materially there.
Yes, I did. She claims that these are faulty translations from the Greek because she has some app that gives her scripture in both KJV version and Greek. Of course, that is untrue. But, it all hinges on authority - you believe what you trust. My Catholic podcasts this week have been all on this subject of the teaching and governing authority of the Church, quoting the Bible, the early Church Fathers, the Catechism, Fr. Spirago, using logic, refelction, etc. It is a fairly long chapter in my book, so I am breaking it down into 30 min or so bites with commentary.
Off the top of my head the KJV worked off like 6 Greek Manuscripts. So, it’s hardly authoritative, which is why Protestants generally use different translations. The Bible didn’t come down in the King’s English. While it’s true that every translation is a work of exegesis, when many denominations agree on a passage then the ability to assent is fairly easy. She’s doing mental gymnastics. I’d simply retort St. Augustine quote that it’s not the gospel she believes but herself because when you show her the counter argument she moves the goalposts.
Very true! Actually, you would be amazed at the mental gymnastics... it reminds me quite a bit of how the Gnostics would base their heresy on labyrinthian interpretations of various bits and pieces of scripture as if every sentence were some deeply mysterious secret prophecy with numerical codes and hidden meanings. As they say, even a stopped clock is right twice a day and Freud was when he said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
Wow. I've not read a text dispelling “sola scriptura” quite so convincingly before. I've not followed that way myself for reason's I'm not entirely sure of. Only that I've just never felt right in that view, although I am still a protestant. A very thought provoking read this morning. Praise God for that.
I'm going to be so bold as to ask for a "Catholic perspective," or at least your perspective, on my most recent essay. I've not thought to run it by a non-protestant for some reason until now but I'd love to get feedback from a more traditional Christian view. If you have the time, I would very much appreciate you taking a look.
Link: https://open.substack.com/pub/derekjpetty/p/love-love?r=5z5dg&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Thanks! I just read your article and it is quite good. I think you are accurate on every point and I hope many will read it. Interestingly, I left the Methodist denomination for this very reason.. I was a Methodist associate youth minister int he late 90s. That took me to the Southern Baptist denomination, as it was more conservative. But again, issues arose over marriage... and that led me to read the early Church Fathers, to eventually to convert to Catholicism. You may find the Gospel reflections I have written for Missio Dei over the past few weeks interesting, as I have been writing a lot about keeping our Lord's commandments and against the homosexual/trans movement. Best wishes on your journey, and I can only offer the advice I followed, pray constantly and follow the Holy Spirit. Feel free to email me if I can be of any help judson@judsoncarroll.com
Thank you for your kind words. That is very interesting and you're not the first ex-Methodist I've come across who left a very long time ago for these reasons. I've obviously got to get my hands on the writings of the early Church Fathers. This has come up time and time again as I've been pondering these issues. And I will certainly go back and read your writings over the past few weeks over the LGBTQ+ topic.
Thank you for your advice and encouragement.
The good news is everything is available online now - the full library of the Church Fathers is huge and expensive. Here is the Didache http://www.thedidache.com/ and here is the ante-Nicene fathers https://ccel.org/fathers
You're too kinds sir. Thank you for sharing these resources. Much obliged.
Sure, no problem. I used those links extensively in writing my most recent book, so they were saved to my favorites. Another great resource is The Catechism Explained by Fr. Spirago. It is free on archive.org.
Vatican II’s Dei Verbum 21 says: "Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture.” The Church recognizes that there is nothing out there that is more authoritative than Scripture for teaching doctrine.
The entire Catholic Church in the fourth century compiled Scripture as the basis for future teaching. Anything else that Christ taught His apostles and disciples is not recorded, so how would anyone know what else He taught them.
The New Testament was written post-Pentecost. This is why it contains teachings, especially in the epistles, that were only alluded to by Christ, but that the Holy Spirit would eventually provide clarification for His apostles and disciples after Pentecost. When there was no longer anyone alive that was initially taught by Christ Himself, there was no longer anyone left that could have what Christ taught to them clarified by the Holy Spirit.
Paul was directly taught by Christ after Pentecost, but he consulted with those in Jerusalem to ensure that his teachings were in line with those of the apostles who had walked with Christ.
The best that we can do today is to use our supernatural discernment, if we have it, to better understand what was taught 2000 years ago. If we don’t have it, we will probably be confused.
By the way, I think that the earliest Jewish Christians gathered on Sunday because they were observing the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday.
You write, “The Church recognizes that there is nothing out there that is more authoritative than Scripture for teaching doctrine.”
Dei Verbum actually doesn’t say that in the text. What DV does say regarding Sacred Revelation given to us by God and it’s authority is found in DV 7:
But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, “handing over” to them “the authority to teach in their own place.” This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received everything.”
&
Dei Verbum 9
“Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.”
DV 10
“Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God.”
“It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”
I know that the text doesn’t actually say that, but if all of Church teaching needs to be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture, what other writings are more authoritative than Sacred Scripture. Anything that is truly regulated by Sacred Scripture can be can be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence. I see no conflict with the remainder.